Bar Width and Handling

09 Saturday Jan 2016

Tags

albastache, albatross, bar width, bikepacking, cycling, ergonomics, handlebar, Hunqapillar, leverage, low-trail, nitto noodles, rivendell, steering

As a follow up to my post on trail, this is a related experiential review on the role of bar width and the interaction with trail. This may impact someone’s decision on whether high or low trail is right for them by basing it on one’s comfort with wide or narrow bars. It also may impact the decision based on what you will be using the bike for, and where you plan to do most of your riding.

Low trail is great with narrow bars

On my Vélo Routier, having narrow bars is comfortable, and I have no problem putting feedback into steering even at higher speeds. I currently use 42cm Noodles, and have plenty of control.

Higher trail is great with wider bars

Wide bars (48cm and wider) work very well on higher trail bikes. They give you the leverage you need to turn during even an “in the rails” higher speed maneuver.

The further away from your steering axis you have your hands, the more they will have input on steering – this is true for any bike and any amount of trail. To get a consistent steering input impact and feel, you should be able to compensate for higher trail with wider bars.

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This is why offroad motorcycles/bicycles have wide handlebars, and most city or road motorcycles/bikes tend to have narrow bars. Big generalization here, but I have definitely noticed this on several occasions. This is not really a discussion based on rider ergonomics and comfort, but a general handling conversation. If you are a rider that needs a wider or narrower bar, it may help to understand how that will impact handling based on what trail geometry your bike has.

Real World Example

In prep for my last adventure, I wanted drop bars due to the length and time I would be in the saddle. The Oregon Outback, at 360 miles and mostly dirt roads, would be an endurance test. I wanted the most hand positions possible, and had done long rides in drops with plenty of comfort. I used 44cm Noodles on my mid/high trail Hunqapillar with the thought that they would add a bit of leverage, but be very close to my “perfect” rando bar, the 42cm Noodle.

Reality was a bit different. While I was plenty comfortable with the bars, and had no hand numbness or pain, there were several times where I wished for more leverage. The amount of weight I had on the bike made these bars too narrow for the dirt trails. I had to put a lot more effort into keeping the bike tracking at low speeds and up hills. This was less noticeable when I was on nicely paved sections, but the dirt roads added difficulty.

On the fast downhills, the gyro effect tended to add to the effort required to steer. I was hit by an incredible wind gust at the very bottom of a 30+mph descent near the end of the ride, and I barely escaped launching off the side of the dirt road. If I hadn’t been near the middle of the road, it would have been grim – the bike tracked me all the way to the far edge before I got enough muscle into keeping on the road.

Lesson – I’m putting a wider bar on this bike. Likely either the new Choco bars from Rivendell, or the Albatross/stache bars I’ve used in the past. A nice Jones H-bar would be great, as well, providing even more leverage and plenty of hand positions.

44cm – a bit too narrow

55cm – just right

Posted by Stonehog | Filed under Cycling, Enduro Offroad, Northwest, Randonneuring

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Trail Riding

06 Wednesday Jan 2016

Tags

a. homer hilsen, bicycle, bike, commute, Cycles Toussaint, cycling, front bag, low-trail, randonneur, rivendell, Seattle, Velo Routier

I want to go into a bit more detail on what I’ve found in experimenting with a more traditional low-trail bike like the Vélo Routier, and compare it to the mid trail Rivendell A. Homer Hilsen from my last post. I have these bikes set up nearly the same. Both use 42cm Noodles, Compass cranks, and VP pedals (not shown), and Selle Anatomica Titanico saddles.

As the side view shows, the main difference is the fork rake and head tube and seat tube angles giving the bikes a slightly different geometry. The Toussaint has slightly steeper angles, and more rake giving it trail around 30mm, whereas the Hilsen is more relaxed with trail around 55-60mm. Yes, the Vélo is 650b and the Hilsen is 700c, but both bikes use light, supple Compass tires (tubeless even). The tire volume has a definite impact on the ride, but it doesn’t really relate to how the trail aspect affects the feel of the bike, at least not in the detail I’ll get into here.

Steering Curves

You can definitely tell the difference in the feel that the geometry creates when doing tight turns on the bike.

I’ll start with a spot in my commute that “pushes” technique a bit. There is a railroad crossing on my daily ride where I perform a fairly tight “S” turn that has fences on either side to keep me honest. The Hilsen requires more thought and body lean. The Vélo Routier requires less body, and steers the curves easier. This is the case no matter the load on the bikes for the most part.

On the other hand, when I put the Hilsen into a curve, it tracks it. When I put the Vélo Routier in, it will still respond to inputs. This can be good or bad. I would say that on the Routier, I have to stay on top of steering all the time, whereas on the Hilsen, I have to be a little more planned up front, but when committed, it requires less concentration from me.

Front Weighted Loads

The Routier is much less concerned if there is weight in the front. The bike doesn’t wag from side to side (wheel flop) when there is significant load, and when I park it with the front bag, it doesn’t sway over to the side. The times I’ve actually found this to be nice is when I’m parking the bike, and when I’m carrying a 10+ pound load (which is actually very rare for me).

My typical rando load is probably at most 5 pounds in my front bag with a layer, extra gloves, and food. This is easily handled with little problem on the Hilsen when similarly front bag equipped.

Tracking

The Hilsen always wants to go straight at speed – there is more gyro stabilization effect with this geometry. This helps when you want to be minimal in steering input. Examples: curves, laziness, riding no-handed. The Routier goes where your hands move it to. This isn’t great if you are tired or distracted. I’ve had a few more close calls on the Routier nearly going on a temporary off-road excursion. This has been at normal riding pace: 12-17 mph. I really noticed this “ultra responsive” steering at the end of a 300k when I was tired, and couldn’t seem to keep the bike going in a straight line without undue effort. I remember thinking to myself that the low trail was supposed to be “easier”, but in this case, under fatigue, it was actually the opposite. This is also a complaint generally fielded against higher trail bikes – that they tend to wander when climbing at slow speeds.

I’ve heard that wind gusts can really upset a higher trail bike, but I haven’t experienced that yet. Gusts tend to bother me on either bike, but not uncontrollably so.

UPDATE: a comment left by a reader asked about high speed descent handling between the bikes. I have noticed very little differences here – when moving at speeds over 20mph, both bikes feel stable.

Commuting

I find no real difference other than the amount of weight you want to carry. And, this only matters if you really want to carry a lot of weight in the front. I tend to hate on rear rack and pannier combos as I don’t like the tail wagging the bike feel, and the dirt on the panniers from road spray. Front bags are awesome for keeping your stuff accessible and clean. I don’t typically carry a lot of weight on my commute. I keep heavy clothes in the office, and only occasionally bring an iPad or MacBook on the commute. I will sometimes pick up beer, or other heavy items on the ride home, however, but either bike manages this for a few miles with no real problems.

Balance/CoG

Now here is something I’ve noticed more as I ride the Toussaint, and this is more obvious when I try to ride no-handed. I feel like my center of gravity is higher on the low-trail bike. It sort of feels like I’m sitting up higher and closer to the bars – more of an “on top” feeling rather than an “in the bike” feeling. I would just attribute this to the sharper seat tube angle – not even something that necessarily contributes to the trail number, but is part of the geometry difference.

Summary

Different trails for different folks with different needs. If you are a long-distance or endurance rider who carries a good load, is alert even after hours in the saddle (think 12+ hours), and you like to have a very precise feel for control on steering movements – go with a low trail ride. If you are regularly carrying large loads, and want them to stay clean and dry, go low trail. If you don’t mind carrying load in the back – it doesn’t really matter then.

If you like to ride long distances but want to be able to do lots of restful no-handed riding, and you like to zone out a bit more – go with a mid-trail bike. If you are a commuter and want a bike that doesn’t flop over and pull the bike down when you have stuff in the front basket/bag, get a low trail bike.

If you like to ride big tires with fenders, or have bigger feet, and hate toe-overlap, you may find you will have less on a low-trail bike as the fork is raked out more. Another consideration.

I find both of these bikes to be great brevet bikes. They are also great commuters. I would give the nod slightly to my Hilsen based on my riding style, preferences, and loaded weight characteristics. Someday, I’ll have to “pull a Chen” and “get another Hilsen” that is modified to low trail and then do a test, but that sounds like a lot of work. I’m moving out of my tweaking phase. My real recommendation is to get two bikes, one low and one mid/high, and find out what you prefer. Nobody can really just tell you – it helps to experience it yourself.

Posted by Stonehog | Filed under Cycling, Randonneuring

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Shimmy Monster

25 Tuesday Nov 2014

Tags

a. homer hilsen, headshake, high trail, Hunqapillar, jack brown, low-trail, Rivende, shimmy, Toussaint

In my estimate, shimmy is something that is related to weight balance on the bike, frame/fork thickness/stiffness, and perhaps tires. Oh yeah – lets not forget velocity, either. If you enjoy stretching occasionally by riding no-handed, shimmy is a demon to be dealt with.

I’ve had some experience with shimmy on my A. Homer Hilsen, but it has been sporadic, and changing things like bar height, front and rear load, and tires seems to impact how bad it is. I leave out speed, as there’s no way I’m going to try to limit that.

Nope – she doesn’t shimmy

When I first built the bike, it had Noodles at around seat height, and I was using Jack Brown tires. No shimmy was present with this 25 lb configuration. I went through a few variations, and initially noticed that when I moved the bars higher, I seemed to get some shimmy. This usually kicked in riding no-handed above 15 mph. I generally kept the load up front on the bike, and this seemed to dampen the shaking, so I was fairly happy. However, with my recent foray into low trail (Cycles Toussaint – no shimmy ever, BTW), I was interested in moving the load back on the Hilsen so it matched the geometry of this higher trail bike. Or so I thought…

Perfectly good headset

It’s been said that a needle bearing headset can cure shimmy. I’ve never used one before, so I guess it was time to check this theory out. I overhauled the bike a month ago, and figured it was time to check the headset. Since it was out, I put in a Miche needle bearing headset, and at the same time added my former front rack to the back of the bike. It seemed like it needed a basket, so I put the medium Wald/Shopsack combo on it that worked so nicely in the past on the front of the bike.

S H I M M Y Y Y Y Y Y . . . . .

Shimmy Monster

Wow – I took this in to work with perhaps 5 lbs of gear in the back, and the shimmy was so bad, it even shimmied with my hands on the bar several times. I experimented with holding my weight forward while I released my hands. This worked at first, but as I moved back to a more upright position, it released the shaking, shifting frame shimmy.

Hmmm – needle bearing not an answer here. After my ride home, I removed the basket/rack combo, and put my front handlebar bag back on. I tied off the tools in my roll bag under the seat. This cured the beast.

No more shakes

Solution for my bike – weight needs to go up front with only a bit of weight allowed under the seat. No weight out back or I get the shakes. It is interesting that my Hunqapillar has never shaken its wooly head. I generally carry weight on the front, however, and this bike has a long top tube that stretches me out putting the weight more forward. It also has beefy, stiff tubes that, like the Toussaint, seem to repel shimmy monsters.

I’ve read of several other light, road Rivendells having a similar tendency, so I will chalk this up to balancing weight properly for the bicycle. If you have shimmy, hopefully this will give you some things to mess around with.

Posted by Stonehog | Filed under Cycling

≈ 2 Comments

2014 – Escape from Seattle Brevet

16 Sunday Mar 2014

Posted by Stonehog in Cycling

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Tags

200k, bicycle, bike, brevet, Cycles Toussaint, cycling, harlequin wrap, low-trail, nitto, noodles, rando, randonneur, Seattle, Selle Anatomica, SIR

Yesterday was iffy. I wasn’t going to do this ride if it was going to be starting out raining. Luckily, most of the day stayed dry, so I went out and enjoyed it. There were 99 folks signed up in the pre-registration, and I saw several folks there who hadn’t been on the list. A 100+ turnout is huge (for me). I started out slowly as my knees were sensitive after last week’s 100k. This time I had a bit of soreness at the halfway point – nothing a bit of ibuprofen didn’t take care of.

The bike functioned flawlessly, and I was comfortable to the end. Great frame, saddle, pedals, tires, and fit. I can’t wait to test this on a longer ride.

The amazing thing about a brevet – it seems like 10 miles out, you hardly see anyone anymore. Folks spread out quickly at these distances. There is a lot of time to catch up with old and new acquaintances, and meditate (as I did on the beautiful mossy green forested road along Lake Roesiger between Granite Falls and Monroe).

At the finish, there was chili and beer, and then a short 1 mile hop back to my home.

Great day to be outdoors!

Full set of photos here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/stonehog/sets/72157642413443174/

Ride map: http://cyclemeter.com/51cfa6724f84c700/Cycle-20140315-0657?r=e

Initial Velo Routier Notes

03 Monday Mar 2014

Posted by Stonehog in Cycling

≈ 15 Comments

Tags

4130, a. homer hilsen, B&M Luxos, bar-end shifters, Berthoud, bike commute, Boxy Rando, Cycles Toussaint, cypres, double butted, Gran Bois, Hetre, low-trail, nitto, noodles, planing, randonneur, Rawland, rene herse, rivendell, rSogn, shimmy, SPD, Velo Routier

I’ve been riding the Cycles Toussaint Velo Routier for a few days – have about 50 miles on it so far. I wanted to collect my thoughts as this is a new geometry and tire size for me. As for the rest of it, it’s very similar in size, weight, and materials (steel) to my A. Homer Hilsen. I’ve used a nearly identical build for the bikes, as well. Both have Nitto Noodle 41cm bars wrapped in cotton tape, both have the Rene Herse cranks, and both are within a few millimeters of dimension for fit. the main difference is the wheel size, tires, and geometry with the Velo Routier being a “low trail” and the Hilsen a “mid-trail” ride. OK – getting to the gut reaction first.

The Hetres really smooth out the ride on my rather bumpy commute. Although I’m on bike trails most of the time, my commute has a number of rough spots with roots pushing up the pavement on the trail, as well as general poor road maintenance in other spots. The Hetres feel smoother as you would expect. They have more air volume, and I have them pumped to 40psi rear, 30psi front. Comparing this to the Cypres tires on the Hilsen at 65psi rear and 45psi front, it should be more forgiving.

The bike feels just as fast. This is gut, so I will watch my commute stats over a longer timeframe. The first few rides are inconclusive as I’ve been more tired than usual. The ride times between bikes are within a few minutes out of an hour commute home.

I can really feel the handling differences in the low-trail – and it is not as disruptive as some of the lit I’ve read. The closest analogy I’ve heard is that “you steer with your bars” on the low-trail bike, whereas on the Rivendells, you “steer with your hips”. This seems accurate to me. I can ride this bike no-handed. It’s not easier to do this than the Rivendell – if anything it is just slightly more apt to wander around, but this may just be my lack of experience on this type of geometry. The interesting part is the feel with a front load. It is much more planted with a bag and a few pounds up front. It also wanders less when going slow, and of course there is much less issue with wheel flop when the bike is stationary. The ride feel is subjectively better with this setup for me. I really like having a front rando bag for longer rides. I can do nearly everything I need to do with all the gear within easy reach. This all said, I was doing fine with the Hilsen and the front rando. I just feel that the Toussaint “feels” more planted with this setup while riding.

As I said earlier, the Hilsen and Velo Routier are set up proportionally identical for my fit. Both bikes feel like a good steel bike should. Solid, compliant, light enough. Both are also beautiful in their own way. The Hilsen will win this battle, but the Toussaint is very nice looking in white with stainless Berthoud fenders and subtle red/yellow decals.

I haven’t had any shimmy issues with either bike. The Velo Routier tracked like a steam engine on a 30+ mph descent, and I rode shimmy-free no-handed from 15-25 mph. This seems to be the sweet spot for shimmy. I know the tubing on the Toussaint is double-butted 4130, with .9/.6/.9 top, seat, and down tubes on my size “large” frame. The smaller sizes are .8/.5/.8. This is not the “ultra-light” planing grade tubing that Jan Heine tends to like, and some of the Rawland bikes are built to, but I’ve ridden an rSogn, and it felt as stiff as this frame. Perhaps I need more sensitivity training. In any case, it rides really well, and I feel totally comfortable on this bike. A longer test ride is due, and luckily this is all set and ready for the upcoming brevet season starting next week!

Other comments on the build? I had no problems getting the build done – there were no flukey gonzo issues like misalignments, or gummed up threads. The hanger was straight, the fenders were already mounted, as were the brakes. I ended up tightening up the fender alignment to match up the Hetres as it originally had 38mm Somas on it, but that was the biggest time suck. I honestly had the thing built in a few hours, and I was taking my time. It helped that I had a cockpit set up from a previous build – nice not to have to wrap the bars. One note – I originally had SPD pedals, but put VP flats on it for the beginning of the season. I want to try these on longer rides to see if I have a knee issue that bothered me last year with the clipless pedals. I also migrated the 9-speed cassette and downtube shifters back to an 8-speed setup with bar-end shifters. Oh, I also put the B&M Luxos dyno light on this bike for the season.

One more item I forgot to add – I was very worried about what kind of front rack to use. The center-pull Dia Compe 750 brakes leave very little room and the normal rando-standard Nitto Mini rack wouldn’t work. Luckily, Cycles Toussaint has this figured out. They have a special rack made just for this bike. I exchanged emails (actually, blog comments) with Evan at Cycles Toussaint, and ordered it after I got the frame. It arrived a few days later just in time for my build. It fit perfectly with rear mounts that fit to the fork crown mounting screws. The rack holds my Tall Boxy Rando bag from Acorn at just the right height – the top even with my bars. Super happy with this. It is also possible to saw the rear arms off, bend the lower support arms, and mount the rack to the fender at two points if you want a lower platform and a more “constructeur” touch as Evan did with his personal bike.